MS: Dave, please introduce yourself and Motul to our members.

DW: I am Vice President of marketing for Motul USA, Inc. My background is in automotive and motorcycles. At an early age I was into high performance cars and motorcycles. Junior Johnson and Pops Yoshimura were my heros. After I graduated high school, I went to college and studied academics. I went in to a program at LA Trade Tech that offered me a scholarship. I was recommended to Yoshimura, which was Suzuki's road racing team to this day. After about a year and a half, I was offered an opportunity to work there which was one of my dreams. My background started as a machinist mechanic and over the years it led to several successful seasons. From there I went to Motul. Motul is a subsidiary of Motul SA in France and we are located in Pomona, California.

MS: What is the history of Motul?

DW: Motul actually started in New York city in 1853. They made whale oil for lanterns. It started through another company called Swan Finch. Before that it was owned by Standard Oil of New Jersey which was a Rockefeller company. In the Sherman Act of 1919, it ended the monopolies where the lubrication company division went to Swan Finch, who built up a very successful company. They had some troubles with the owners getting too successful and then the company was bought up by the French distributor at the time, the Zaugg family. They bought it in 1932 and moved the entire operation to France. It has been there ever since. Motul is currently in 63 countries. They have five subsidiaries. One is in Italy, others in Germany, US and India. They are working on plants in other countries. They have 500 employees in France and Europe. They have two labs.

MS: I enjoy motorcycles, but I would prefer to focus upon automobiles, specifically, DeTomaso automobiles. What can you tell us there?

DW: I have begun gathering information, and I cannot judge the depth of our past involvement, but you are aware that your car was formerly sponsored by Motul in Europe. We did a lot of racing in Europe and we sponsored a lot of racing Panteras. It may or may not have been like our formal contract sponsorship that we have with other factories now. In the U.S., we were involved with DC Sports which is supposed to do the SCCA World Challenge Series. We want to get involved with local tracks and local people that are running a wider variety of automobiles such as vintage or Pantera people that show up with a real effort or attempt to compete that will generate word of mouth and advertising for our products. It is difficult to get somebody to try a product unless somebody tells them it works.

MS: Almost all of our members are concerned about their braking systems. Our cars are capable out of the box of reaching over 150 mph. Some of us enjoy our cars on the race track. We have published a lot of information on this topic. Particularly the utilization of silicone fluid.

DW: Motul does not produce or sell any Silicone based brake fluids. There is no brand of silicone brake fluid for sale in Europe at all. The DOT 5 rating they had for many years was actually a polyglycol base. This met the specs of the current DOT 5 recommendations. We have a DOT 4 which is our racing 600 formula and we have a DOT 5.1 which are both polyglycol based although the Racing 600 does have a unique formula. As far as recommendations, I do not recommend silicone brake fluids at all. They are fine for a car that is not pushed very hard. One nice thing about silicone is that if you have a leak, it won't eat up the paint. On the other hand, when silicone gets warm it starts to be compressible. It is one of the few fluids in the world that is actually compressible as it gets hot. When you near what the boiling point is of silicone brake fluid, it actually has become compressible and you lose your brakes.

MS: What is the impact of moisture getting into the brake system?

DW: With silicone, if you look at the statistics, moisture gets into the system. Either you drive in the rain or moisture enters through a cracked seal. Silicone is completely inert and will not absorb any moisture. But, if moisture is forced into the system, such as by driving through a big storm or excessive leakage, then the problem is that the water will be at the bottom of the silicone, which is the calipers, which is usually the hottest portion of the brake system. In reality the true boiling point of silicone, which everybody thinks is 500 degrees is really 212, because the water isn't absorbed into the fluid at all.

MS: On the DOT 5.1 brake fluid you offer, the label declares 509 degrees dry and 365 degrees wet. I don't understand how these numbers are developed. Would you explain?

DW: When we produce brake fluid, the package or bottle you receive is a very special bottle. There is no chance of moisture being absorbed through any pores. The second thing is that the fluid is put in pretty warm and the fluid is topped off with a nitrogen gas environment in both our Racing and DOT 5.1 fluids. When you pull the cap open, it is sealed and the air you see in the bottle is really nitrogen. The shelf life is extended a great deal. When you pop the top off, that fluid, if you were to put it in a frying pan, right away with no moisture and then proceed to boil it, it would boil at 509 degrees. The Department of Transportation did studies a number of years ago and what they did was, they took fluid from normal automobiles, running under normal conditions with normal heat changes such as winter and summer. The DOT ran the cars and then they took samples of the fluids after one year. What they came up with was that the fluid contained 3 1/2 to 4 percent of water or moisture. When you see a wet boiling point number, what that is saying is that when the fluid is contaminated in any which way such as water coming through the master cylinder or seals, bad lines, etc., when it reaches 3 1/2% moisture in the fluid, that is the wet boiling point. Of course, if you get more water in it, it will go lower because water boils at 212 degrees. That is what the two figures mean. Simply stated, when the fluid is new and dry, it starts at 509 degrees boiling temperature and after about one year it drops to 365 degrees because there is about 4% water in it.

MS: Is it prudent to toss out the unused portion of a bottle of brake fluid, rather than saving it for the next application?

DW: I did a few experiments for some race teams because they didn't understand this right away. I once filled a shot glass with brake fluid at Road Atlanta during the heat of summer. I came back within an hour and found that the fluid had overflowed the glass because the moisture had been absorbed by the fluid, making it overflow. If you could squeeze the bottle and put the cap on, creating a vacuum, and if you did it right after you opened the container, you may be able to use that brake fluid again within a short period of time. Especially if you had a nice cool place in the garage where you could leave it sealed. But, generally speaking, we don't like to keep brake fluids and that is because I come from a performance background. I toss it within a short period of time because I don't want it to get mixed up. Motul DOT 5.1 is available in the quarter liter which is 8 ounces and a half liter, 16 ounce container. We don't make anything bigger. I have seen in stores, brake fluid sold in gallon containers. To me, that would take too long to use and you are contaminating it the moment you open it. For the Pantera, the DOT 5.1 is what I call a 'top off' fluid.' If you walk in to the shop and you just want to change your pads or bleed the system and you aren't going to change the fluid in the entire system and run clean fluid from the master to the caliper, then the 5.1 will mix with anything. I would recommend the 5.1 for most people who don't do a full service of the brakes. I use the Racing 600 in all my vehicles because the wet boiling point in that product is up to 421 degrees. Your off the shelf, cheap, 99 cent special is 446 degrees maximum dry and 311 degrees wet. The wet boiling point of our racing fluid is almost as good as the dry boiling point of the regular DOT 4. We request that if you use the Racing brake fluid that you bleed the entire system if you do a complete servicing because the fluid doesn't like moisture and if you are going to spend money for a good performance product, it doesn't make sense to contaminate it when you first put it in.

MS: How often do you recommend for the Pantera evacuating the entire brake system and starting over with fresh fluid?

DW: In working with older cars, I find that unless you do a complete reseal job, as these parts get older and are not used, the parts kind of fit in a set and the seals don't like to be moved after they have sat for a long time. Then you have a way for moisture to seep in. The answer is depending on the state of condition of the system, I would change the fluid every one to two years depending on what type of storage place and what kind of driving that is done. If the car is not taken out and driven in the rain or a high humidity environment, it probably wouldn't be a problem. If the car is subjected to moisture conditions, at least look at it once a year. Make sure the fluid is clear and doesn't show any signs of moisture contamination. It is a half hour job to do it.

MS: When I saw the temperature ratings of your Racing brake fluid, I assumed it was a silicone product. At 585 degrees, is there any non-silicone product better than this?

DW: It is about the highest you are going to find anywhere in the country. You never see it in normal stores because it is a very exclusive performance product. Your normal store like Pep Boys, K-Mart and even mom and pop speed shops don't carry it because it is expensive compared to the $2 charge for normal brake fluid. So, they are scared to stock it until there is a normal market for it.

MS: Silicone brake fluid will find leaks and that is bad. What about your polyglycol brake fluid. What can I expect?

DW: All brake lines are teflon coated to prevent moisture from getting in. Polyglycol is a mystery because it will absorb moisture right through rubber. That is why teflon is used. The problem is when people mix systems such as putting silicone into a polyglycol system. People have found out that silicone isn't so great. People used to grab it off the shelf. What created the problem is that people didn't change over their seals when they changed over their systems to silicone. Earl's, Aeroquip and Goodrich make very good brake lines. I would always buy steel braided brake lines over OEM lines that have fiberglass linings. As the lines or rubber gets old, they stretch and as you push the brake pedal you push the fluid against the system, which pushes the fluid against the caliper piston and pad against the rotor. As you put more pressure in, the hoses try to expand and that is one reason why your pedal gets soft under hard use. Steel braids won't allow the expansion of the line. It holds the line tight so that it doesn't expand when you apply the brakes hard.

MS: Let's talk about the ZF transmission in the Pantera. A new one can cost $8,500-14,000. Does Motul offer a high end product for my expensive transmission.

DW: We have four types of gear oil. The top of the line product is 100% ester based synthetic 75w90 GL5. GL5 is the rating for the level of gear oil. In other words it is extreme pressure, anti-wear for handling exceptional loads. Then we have a semi-synthetic oil which seems to be a very popular product with notchy gearboxes and for people who want a petroleum based product. Next, is a product we call Gearbox which is a petroleum product but it is completely packed with extreme pressure, anti-wear properties including Moly. This is for gearboxes that are designed specifically for racing such as very thin gears that handle very high horsepower engines that wear a lot. I would say that in most cases I would run the 100% synthetic.

MS: I was told that synthetic oil leaks out of the ZF if there is even the slightest leak.

DW: In a nutshell, synthetic is a bad word in a sense. For example, if you took white sand and synthesized it, it would turn into glass. Nobody ever calls glass synthetic sand. With engine oil there are two types of synthetics. The main type in this country is a synthetic called Polyalphaoefin which is a petroleum oil that is synthesized, which is then called a synthetic because you have changed the structure. It is called PAO for short and is relatively inexpensive at $4.00 a quart. The second type is an ester. These are actually a vegetable synthetic, coming from vegetable fatty acids and alcohol and processed in laboratory conditions. They are true synthetics from natural resources. Thus, there are two types of synthetics, one a petroleum product and the other from vegetables. A synthetic will find a leak A vegetable synthetic has a property we call unctuousness or oiliness.. It is polarized and actually has a negative end chain and iron and steel have a positive end chain. What happens is that the oil is attracted to bare surfaces and is trying to spread to wherever there isn't any oil. Thus if you have a weak gasket, a good synthetic oil will capillary or migrate through a weak gasket. That is one of the key advantages to an ester based synthetic like we use. Once you put this type of product in you never start metal to metal, even after a year there should be a one, one millionth inch of film. Even if the car has been in storage. This is completely untrue of petroleum oil regardless of who makes it. Petroleum will come off just from it's own weight in time.

MS: How often should we change the gearbox oil?

DW: I normally say, depending upon the mileage. Once a year or every 12,000 miles. If it is abused very hard, you start to destroy the extreme pressure additive portion. We use a very special sulphurized ester. This is a secondary type of extreme pressure additive sort of like a bullet proof vest. Even after twenty years, if you don't get shot, it is still there. But if your shot, so is the vest. It works in the same way. Under extreme conditions when you have very high temp, caused by the two gears meshing very hard, for example you should be in first gear but you are in third, or going up a hill or having flat tires. These are extreme conditions and the gears can get super heated. The sulfurized ester when it gets super heated will actually plate and becomes a solid and will decompose in a fraction of a second but in that second, while decomposing, it will plate and prevent metal to metal contact. If you really abuse the gearbox, I would change it more frequently, like six months of six thousand miles (for the street) but racers BEWARE, I'd change or at least check the oil after a serious race weekend! That is real cheap insurance.

MS: We just did a story on a Pantera with 600 miles on it. How would you counsel owners that plan on storing their cars or driving them the shortest of distances?

DW: If that car has the original seals in it, I would use the semi-synthetic gear oil, as for the engine, having only 600 miles on it, it probably is only started once in awhile. If somebody is starting an engine regularly and allowing it to heat cycle, letting the oil reach all of the parts, then you might want to go into our 6100 Synergie oil which is a semi-synthetic oil. It is approved and homologated in 60 countries. It has some esters in it to keep a film on the engine parts.

MS: What type of motor oil does Motul offer that would be of the most interest to us 351-C owners?

DW: We have two oils, a semi-synthetic and a 100% synthetic. I would say that the semi-synthetic has all of the current, modern day approvals which isn't as critical on an older Pantera. If the car is raced I recommend to use or at least mix in our Racing 300 V series. It is an ester oil, which has a very high running temperature. The advantages of the Racing 300 V, is again, the film that the ester puts down and prevents metal to metal contact. A second advantage in the 300 V series is that the ester has four to five times the film strength and the tensile strength. It is more of an insurance policy. Compare cooking with butter and cooking with olive oil. If you leave the butter cooking too long in the frying pan, when it gets too hot, the oil will evaporate at a certain point (volatility), it will actually carbonize and leave a mess because it has overheated. The ester has a very high running temperature of 365 degrees in the 300 V oil which will stand up to very high temperature in an emergency. For example, what if you are driving along and a hose comes off, a rock hits the radiator, a clamp comes off, the water pump stops working, the thermostat sticks or any of these things. What would you rather have in the crankcase in your 351, butter or olive oil?

MS: Why does 300 V Racing oil cost more than off the shelf products?

DW: An ester based synthetic is not pumped out of the ground. They are collected from vegetables, coconuts and Methyl products. It drives the prices way up. Mobil 1 and Castrol are designed for modern street cars. 300 V is designed for performance. Some of our products may be designed for energy conservation but they will never have energy conserving paramount and that is a complete difference in theory. We like to have some resistance on the rings because the rings are meant to seal. A total reduction of friction on the other hand is not very good for internal combustion motors. You have to have some properties to make sure the rings are sealing, etc. We use a different additive package and a different base. Other products are designed for moderate horsepower, moderate performance and moderate compression. What we do with the 300 V is developing it for high performance first not a mileage situation. The 300 V is the top of our line and has major portions of research and chemistry modification research going on constantly. It is constantly looked at. We now have 10w40, 15w50 and 15w60 among others. This is for different applications for different cars. Our 15w60 was made to tackle fuel dilution problems in 24 hour racing like at LeMans. After so much time, in the race, they get a lot of blow by and fuel getting past the rings during the race. This will thin out the oil so much that they had to actually create a 15w60 oil viscosity so that by the end of the race there would be enough viscosity left to hold or cushion the motor.

MS: What weight do you recommend for the 351C that might hit the track now and then but mostly sees street use on an infrequent basis?

DW: I would recommend a 15w50 for most performance vehicles except for cars like the new Hondas that are very, very tight on the pistons and lifters. There we use a 10w40 or 5/30. A 15w50 has a pour point of 22 degrees below zero. An ambient temperature of 30 degrees Farenheit, and above should be fine for a 15w50 oil. 10w40 is for lower temperatures. With this oil, it will be almost impossible for the motor to destroy the ester based portion of the oil. It almost is inshearable. That motor won't place enough stress, even if it is built to destroy the ester. The additive package is something we can't control. For example, if an owner only starts his engine occasionally and doesn't properly warm the engine up for long enough to get the oil temperature past 160 degrees, it doesn't burn off any of the impurities. At 160 the additives begin to work. At 180 degrees you burn off all of the condensation. It starts to steam out to the recirculating system. All of those contribute to the change time when the owner never takes the car out for a long enough drive to get it warm. This results in gas in the crankcase that never burns off. I would recommend an oil change under those conditions even sooner, for example 2,000 miles. I have checked the oil at 7,000 mile intervals and have not had any problems. However, I have had cases where at 3000 miles there was sodium and coolant in the oil and all kinds of stuff. It mostly depends upon the condition of the car and who is driving it. I would say, 3-5000 miles on our 300 V would be the average.

MS: Any advice for our forced induction owners on oil?

DW: Yes, one of the advantages of the ester based products is just like in our example of the butter burning. If you burn that butter you get a carbon mess. If you put olive oil in, even on fire, what it leaves behind is almost nothing, there are very few coking deposits. The advantage of 300 V is that the ester based products do not leave coking deposits if they burn. What kills turbos and their bearings is not only the heat, but when you shut the engine down, pumping oil to the turbo stops, the races remain hot. When you look at the bearings taken from heat affected areas, they have a brown haze on them and what that is are the races cooking in the oil and building up a film. When you go to start the engine again, the bearings rub that film down but what you are starting to do is building a film on the bearings and that is what kills the bearings because the oil doesn't have space to take up or go around the race and eventually it will squeeze so hard that it won't let any oil in as a flow and you break the heat treat. The 300 V is very good for the turbos because it doesn't leave deposits when the motor is shut off and cooling down.

MS: All we hear about are additives, I am sure you have seen them on TV and seen the ads. Are these of value to us Pantera owners?

DW: The Prolong additive is a chlorinated hydrocarbon. What that means is that it is invested with a chlorine process and it is petroleum oil. I understand that this additive was developed before Prolong did it's marketing campaign, it was actually made for Canadian jets and they needed some type of a product that would prevent galling of bearings when the aircraft would have to take off in the Tundra from an emergency situation. Yes, it is an extreme pressure additive in a nutshell. We don't use it because it is chlorinated. It is very ecologically questionable. Motul is sold in 65 countries and most of them don't care for its use. The United States has rules that pertain to too much chlorination in waste oil which has to be handled special. We are still testing this to determine how it affects the rest of the engine oil such as anti-foaming and anti-corrosion. I haven't tested it enough to say that it is detrimental. You don't need it in our engine oil because we already put in extreme pressure additives. We also test its ability to blend. You may only see the product in a test situation but how does it react when there is gas or water mixed in with it or deposits of carbon that wash by the rings or how does it react with heat cycling? These are questions that we don't have answers for.

MS: I feel like these Motul products could actually save an engine in a crunch. Is that a safe assumption?

DW: That is one of the reasons why these products are so highly acclaimed and have a loyal following, especially in Europe and other countries. Because of it's characteristics, particularly it's very high boiling point and running temperature, there is a situation where you have tight spots or heat problems, it will go to it, which would prevent serious wear or serious dilemmas. It is not going to prevent something from happening it the component is already on it's way out or not put together well enough. It might prolong something that is fatiguing or cracking but it can't prevent it. If a motor is pushed very, very hard and the film strength of the oil collapses or can't handle it, that could be the start of a problem, such as the bearings beginning to scuff because the running temperature of the oil couldn't hold it. We have situations where a racer forgot to put water in the radiator and went around Daytona for 7 laps before the driver noticed something was wrong. Our product saved the motor.

MS: You have given us a lot of good ideas. Summing our chat up, why should a Pantera owner consider purchasing these Motul products?

DW: If you look on the back of a container of Motul 6100 Synergie, our street version, you will find that it has homologation from the major factories on it. There are several types of approval for it, but what you really need to look for is for longevity in the product, you need some type of ester in the product. You need something that stresses performance instead of lowering friction or increasing mileage. Because we are looking more at a Pantera as a total performance package. It doesn't necessarily mean removing all of the friction, there has to be a balance. We have a complete line of products for automotive applications. I define high performance as being more than just changing the oil, the oil must be looked at as being more than just maintenance and instead as insurance. This means that if you use our 300 V Motorsports oil, even if you mix it with our 6100 Synergie oil, which I have people doing, you will find that it is real good piece of mind knowing that if some situation occurs where you are running our top of the line products, that you will stand a much better chance of sustaining only superficial damage instead of having to replace an entire motor type of damage.

MS: Thank you for your time in granting us this interview. Now I finally understand why our Pantera was able to finish and win so many races in Europe. Those Motul lubricants kept it running on the last lap.

DW: These lubricants are cheap insurance.

MS: We strongly  recommend and use these phenomenal products in all of our DeTomaso cars and our racing cars as well.